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Post by feather on Feb 20, 2021 19:44:01 GMT -6
On this recipe, it uses vinegar. Doesn't vinegar kill yeast?
Otherwise it looks pretty good. I'd skip the oil but I always skip oil. I'd use whole wheat flour and dark rye flour. I love a good black bread. I'm planning on making bread in 2 days but DS wants oatmeal ww bread, and mr feather wants bread stuffed with herbs and garlic like I made a week or so ago.
Russian Black Bread
4 tsp yeast, instant
2 3/4 cup(s) water
1/4 cup(s) blackstrap molasses
1 tsp sugar
2 cup(s) bran
4 cup(s) dark rye flour
1/4 cup(s) vinegar
5 tb oil
2 tb caraway seeds
2 tsp Russian caraway seeds (nigella) aka black cumin
1/2 tsp fennel seed; crushed
1 tb salt
2 tsp instant coffee powder
2 tsp onion powder
4 tb dark cocoa powder
2 tsp caramel powder (optional)
3-3.5 cups bread flour
A. Combine the yeast, water, molasses, sugar, bran, and rye flour in the mixer bowl and set aside while preparing remaining ingredients, to allow the water to be absorbed. Add the vinegar, oil, seeds, salt, coffee, cocoa, and onion powder, and mix well. Add the bread flour a cup at a time, leaving it just a little moist. Knead 6-7 min. on medium with the dough hook, or 10 min. by hand. Place into an oiled bowl and roll over to coat. Cover and let rise 1 1/2 hrs. or until doubled, turning after 15 and 30 min.
B. Punch dough down and divide into two pieces. Shape each into a round loaf, or place in two 2 lb. loaf pans. Spray with oil, and cover with plastic. Let rise 45 min., or until about doubled.
C. Bake 1 hr at 350º, or less if using a stone at higher temps. I also bake only 45 min. in a convection oven, at 300º. Cool on a wire rack.
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Post by mzgarden on Feb 21, 2021 5:44:35 GMT -6
feather , The right amount of vinegar can make a 'sour' for flavor. I found this. I also remember my mom telling me that vinegar was important especially with rye flour in the recipe. Something about how rye works is different in the leavening process. I'll try to find something that looks like what mom told me a looooong time ago. In the meantime: How Vinegar Works in Bread Recipes Yeast is a leavening agent. As it ferments, it produces carbon dioxide bubbles, which make the dough rise and puff up. Inside the bread dough, a lot of stuff is happening besides the fermentation process associated with yeast. Vinegar enhances the chemical reactions within the dough by increasing the dough’s acidity. Increasing the acidy slows down the fermentation process (it doesn’t stop it altogether), which gives gluten better opportunity to form. As it forms, it traps carbon dioxide.
Vinegar also reacts with baking soda and creates more creating carbon dioxide gas. The happy effect here is that cookies and cakes rise better as they bake. Bread rises higher as well and yields a more refined texture.
Found something that matches what mom said-an answer to someone's question about vinegar:
If it contained a high amount of rye flour, an acid would be needed for the bread to leaven. This is because bread with lots of rye rises due to polysaccharates called "pentosans" (if i remember correctly) being sticky and holding in the carbon dioxide bubbles. With heat, an enzyme in rye called "amylase" will start eating up the pentosans, unless the amylase is deactivated with acidity (wheat flour uses a protein called "gluten" to trap bubbles, and its amylase is deactivated with heat anyhow). The acidity is traditionally lactic acid, produced by lactobacilli bacteria in sourdough, but could be vinegar.
If it's mostly wheat flour (i.e. if you have to knead it), the vinegar would just be for flavour.
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Post by Tim Horton on Feb 21, 2021 8:08:12 GMT -6
If there had been milk in the recipe, I would have guessed the vinegar was to make a left handed sour milk as it were...
This being an old trick I have used lots with things like pancake, waffle batter if something like Fred Sourdough was not available..
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Post by feather on Feb 21, 2021 10:01:41 GMT -6
feather , The right amount of vinegar can make a 'sour' for flavor. I found this. I also remember my mom telling me that vinegar was important especially with rye flour in the recipe. Something about how rye works is different in the leavening process. I'll try to find something that looks like what mom told me a looooong time ago. In the meantime: How Vinegar Works in Bread Recipes Yeast is a leavening agent. As it ferments, it produces carbon dioxide bubbles, which make the dough rise and puff up. Inside the bread dough, a lot of stuff is happening besides the fermentation process associated with yeast. Vinegar enhances the chemical reactions within the dough by increasing the dough’s acidity. Increasing the acidy slows down the fermentation process (it doesn’t stop it altogether), which gives gluten better opportunity to form. As it forms, it traps carbon dioxide.
Vinegar also reacts with baking soda and creates more creating carbon dioxide gas. The happy effect here is that cookies and cakes rise better as they bake. Bread rises higher as well and yields a more refined texture.
Found something that matches what mom said-an answer to someone's question about vinegar:
If it contained a high amount of rye flour, an acid would be needed for the bread to leaven. This is because bread with lots of rye rises due to polysaccharates called "pentosans" (if i remember correctly) being sticky and holding in the carbon dioxide bubbles. With heat, an enzyme in rye called "amylase" will start eating up the pentosans, unless the amylase is deactivated with acidity (wheat flour uses a protein called "gluten" to trap bubbles, and its amylase is deactivated with heat anyhow). The acidity is traditionally lactic acid, produced by lactobacilli bacteria in sourdough, but could be vinegar.
If it's mostly wheat flour (i.e. if you have to knead it), the vinegar would just be for flavour.
I didn't even know there was a breadopedia. Rye does cause problems with rising in some of my doughs. That's cool to know. Thank you.
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Post by feather on Feb 21, 2021 10:03:14 GMT -6
If there had been milk in the recipe, I would have guessed the vinegar was to make a left handed sour milk as it were... This being an old trick I have used lots with things like pancake, waffle batter if something like Fred Sourdough was not available.. Thanks Tim, somehow in all my bread baking, I've never used vinegar but I will try it in the future. |
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Post by cabinfever on Feb 21, 2021 10:43:03 GMT -6
I wonder if the vinegar isn't used as a short term preservative? The reason I say this is whenever I smell commercial manufactured bread, especially hotdog and hamburger buns, they smell like vinegar.
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Post by karenbc on Feb 21, 2021 13:36:09 GMT -6
I've used vinegar in bread for years, about 1 tbsp per loaf. It conditions the dough, makes it nicer to work with, and cabinfever is right - it is a preservative. I've never found there is a vinegar smell after baking.
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Post by midtnmama on Feb 22, 2021 7:01:07 GMT -6
I've used vinegar in bread for years, about 1 tbsp per loaf. It conditions the dough, makes it nicer to work with, and cabinfever is right - it is a preservative. I've never found there is a vinegar smell after baking. I have found that a little vinegar and oats will add to the preservation of bread. You don't have to use oat flour, just toss a handful of oats in your dough. |
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Post by midtnmama on Feb 22, 2021 7:02:14 GMT -6
If there had been milk in the recipe, I would have guessed the vinegar was to make a left handed sour milk as it were... This being an old trick I have used lots with things like pancake, waffle batter if something like Fred Sourdough was not available.. " a left handed sour milk" That's one I've not heard. Love it! |
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Post by feather on Feb 23, 2021 14:31:35 GMT -6
I made this bread today. I didn't use bran, caramel flavor, sugar, oil, and used WW flour instead of bread flour. I added 3 T gluten powder. I put the seeds in the coffee grinder and slightly ground those. I cut back the salt to 1 t.
As it was baking it smelled like butter, really nice smell. I had to have some right out of the oven. I baked 16 rolls, baked for 35 minutes 350 deg F. I put some nectarine puree on them. Very nice flavor, quite a moist and heavy texture. There's no smell of vinegar once baked.
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Post by shin on Feb 23, 2021 15:21:39 GMT -6
Thanks feather I was interested in how this one turned out.
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Post by feather on Feb 23, 2021 18:29:45 GMT -6
Thanks feather I was interested in how this one turned out. The smell of it baking was buttery, hard to understand how it could be buttery, with no butter. The bread wafted a little onion which made me think of savory, but it had a little bit of sweetness and very nice spices but nothing familiar to me, nothing jumped out. I'm sure I'll make this again. I've been a fan of black bread most of my life. It has complex flavoring. |
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Post by shin on Feb 23, 2021 18:40:45 GMT -6
Did you use regular white vinegar or apple cider vinegar?
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Post by feather on Feb 23, 2021 18:42:04 GMT -6
Did you use regular white vinegar or apple cider vinegar? Apple Cider vinegar. I use that for almost everything because I like how mild it is compared to white. I reserve white for cleaning for the most part. |
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Post by Tim Horton on May 9, 2021 9:38:22 GMT -6
A bit more on the vinegar thing....
It has been a bit now, but what I was reading at the time, they mentioned using vinegar and soda, a mini equivalent of the old grade school foaming volcano, as a substitute of sorts for yeast..
I'm sure in could be used as a substitute or in combination with yeast to use less yeast or enhance yeast, up to a point I suspect...
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Post by shin on May 10, 2021 15:59:59 GMT -6
That's an interesting experiment to try.
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